Blake Vogt Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Inventing Magic, episode 7.
We’re going to start this off a little bit differently than normal. We have a special guest today. Hok, welcome!
Hok Thank you so much for having me.
BV Normally, I don’t list people’s credits, but some magicians might not be familiar with your work. This is just scratching the surface, but you were a competitor on season 3 of So You Think You Can Dance, you were the winner of season 3 of America’s Best Dance Crew with Quest Crew, and also the All-Star Season winner. You have choreographed and performed with Justin Bieber, Usher, LMFAO, and Chris Brown. You’re a choreographer, creative director behind Nike’s recent global campaigns, and all-around badass. Is that pretty accurate?
H I would like to believe so, yes.
BV I’m going to pull up a one-hour timer, and we’re going to invent a new magic trick.
H I’m scared. I have no idea where this is going, but that makes it so exciting.
BV And are you in your apartment?
H Yes, I am. This is my apartment. Just a bunch of my random art. [Shows paper.] This is part of the paper cutting stuff I do. A couple of new pieces right now.
Where do we start? I feel like the net could be cast so broadly.
BV It’s a good question. I work well with parameters. This is going to be made into an article in Genii magazine, a magazine for magicians. We try to come up with either objects or premises that the average person, reader, performer, could relate to. We wouldn’t want to jam on a massive skyscraper illusion.
H We’re gonna have so many side tangents, just because the first thing I think of—if that’s the medium—it would be really cool if the article itself is the magic trick.
V I love that. Even if it’s just something in the magazine that allowed you to do something. Besides it being an article, either something that’s designed to speak to your paper cutting skills—if it was either something in the magazine (I don’t want people to destroy the magazine) but if they cut this thing out of the magazine, they do a trick with that thing. Or if you went to this website and printed this free PDF, and then you cut out this piece of paper that allowed you to do a trick.
H One of the events that happened in my life that made me want to explore further into the mind was the Hollow Face effect—the dragon illusion. But the day after I saw that, I actually made a hollow tube and was moving it around in my hand like a crazy person all day. And obviously it was much harder, because the face we understand, so it’s much easier for the illusion to work, whereas with a cube, there’s no sort of psychological attachment to it. So to see it in inverse—it was much harder. But once I accomplished that, I feel like it opened up to seeing things in different ways. This might be too far out, but making the hollow cube might be one idea.
BV When you were speaking of the hollow cube, where my brain jumped to first was—I think the hollow cube is just three squares, right? So, pulling out your wallet, you show these three squares, and you stick them together on a pen and you say, “Tell me the moment it becomes three-dimensional for you.” And then when you reach up and pluck it, you hand them a three-dimensional cube.
H Is there any cube-shaped thing that we’re used to seeing every day? Where we would see a face and think, “Oh, obviously that’s 3D?”
BV Rubik’s Cube, a die. Calen Morelli has done some great stuff with a deck of cards, which is square-ish shaped, but you do naturally assume things.
H I guess it is tougher when it is an object. We don’t connect to it as quickly. There’s something definitely with the face. A face kind of jumps at you. And it’s funny, because I think those things go beyond what we personally want to believe. It’s embedded in our genetic code.
BV Well, there’s also those illusions where the thing is stretched out. Have you played with those? For example, a bottle of rubber cement glue, if you took a photo of it and stretched it. What’s that called?
H It’s a version of forced perspective, isn’t it?
BV Having a full page in the magazine is kind of interesting, because then you wouldn’t necessarily need to cut it out. You could just take your phone and you could point it at the magazine and find the sweet spot and make it look like there’s something on the magazine article.
H What’s the proper name? Is it the mirrored cylinder? Yeah, where the image is stretched out. But the only thing is, no one has a mirrored cylinder. [Laughs.]
BV That’s a great one, though. I love those. And now also, just going back one, the thing that is kind of crazy is just this idea that the magazine itself does the trick. We’d have to talk to Genii people—I’ve never seen this done in a magazine, but you have a spread, right? You open to a page and it looks like an article, and then on the very next page is the exact same article, but with a stretched perspective printed object on top.
Let’s say it was this stretched object, and you pointed your phone at it. Then, you showed it was flat. But then whenever you reached over, if you could somehow secretly turn the page and lift up, and then it would look like you’re plucking it into reality.
H So if we imagine, let’s say a die. Because then that would fit onto the size of the page. Somehow we can get from page one to two seamlessly. Then we pluck it out with the actual object. OK, there’s something there.
BV I just love this concept that the magazine itself does the trick.
H I wonder, too, if there is a smaller object that we can use that is more for non-magician people, because I feel like for magician people, when it’s this size—coins or dice or cards is a thing—but a regular person that’s not into magic wouldn’t randomly have dice, you know?
ID, credit card. Crumpled up bill? I’m trying to think of things also that we could print, and then everyone would have. Because if it’s AirPods, you’d have to have AirPods. If it was chapstick, you’d have to have that brand of chapstick. Cash. What’s cash? You pluck out a Venmo link. We’ll have to go from the first page to the second page. That’s gonna be the biggest problem.
BV Just spitballing here, because this [turning a magazine page] is a big motion, especially for a magazine. So maybe it’s just something smaller, like building a flap into the magazine.
H I mean, that would probably just be a dotted line or something that you cut and then fold, right?
BV The other thing it makes me think of is, it’d be great if you could do it without the magazine. A small thing that’s the size of a credit card. If you printed this off and put it in your wallet, then you could pull it out and put it down on the table and show this optical illusion, reach over and interact with it somehow. What’s a 3D object that would be nice? Jetsons style—I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of or watched The Jetsons.
H I know about it, but what is Jetsons style?
BV Old cartoon where George Jetson had a car, and his whole car would fold up into a suitcase, which was cool. This only works for me, but my EpiPen—so annoying to carry around—but a flat version of it. And then anytime I wanted to, I could remove the 3D object from there. What’s an everyday object that everyone, not just magicians, could use or have or need?
H Phone. But I guess it won’t work if I need to use that as the fake 3D perspective.
BV What if it was: “I’ve got this piece of paper.” Rorschach test style. “What does this look like?” And they say, “Nothing.” “Now can I borrow your phone? Let me see if I put your phone right here? Now go look through your phone. See how it looks like an image on your phone. But in real life, it’s clearly flat? For the next few seconds, just look through your phone.”
H It’s tricky, because where the change needs to happen is exactly where they’ll be looking.
BV What would be better is if you could delay it. I want to come back to that. But while you’re talking, it made me think of just switching, the misdirect could be what mode the camera’s on. So you’d say, “Open up your phone,” and it’s automatically on photo, right? But you’re just using it as a viewfinder, right? You’d say, “Here, switch it to video.” And while they’re switching it to video, you switch the object, and you say, “OK, press record. See how that still looks three-dimensional. Then you reach over and pluck it, right?”
H Because from photo to video, it blurs. That’s a good amount, that’s like seven or eight frames, which is more than enough.
BV Your hand could already be there…. Let’s go back to the cube. Which is the simplest one? What were you saying was the problem with it when you tried to do it? Was getting it to become three-dimensional for someone?
H You really have to use your willpower to see the hollow cube as sticking out when it’s in your hand, because you already know it’s hollow. You can get there. It’s kind of like seeing the corner of the room and imagining it coming out. That’s actually easier, because you don’t see the width of the paper. But psychologically, there is a bit of a learning curve.
BV Does it work better on a phone as opposed to the naked eye?
H Probably. It’s so wild, when it clicks, it’s like an optical illusion, and it looks like a hologram.
BV Do you have to do it with one eye closed?
H You know what? I don’t think I was doing it back then with one eye closed.
BV This is our flat object [makes hollow cube]. And it helps if it’s on something, right?
H You can just hold it in your hands. I think the tough thing is convincing someone to care, to see it in the other way, because you—even when you’re doing it yourself—you really have to force it. It’s like that turning girl optical illusion where with your willpower you can flip it.
BV See this cube on my hand? And then it just becomes a cube. Floating. What if you could have it on your thumb? It’s almost there, do you see it? Does that look good?
H Wait. How is it floating?
BV I just put double-stick tape.
H I think it has to be floating and the more subtle it is, the more realistic it is. For the camera, it looks so much more realistic. Yeah, it took me so long to get there in person. Maybe then it is to FaceTime someone and show them, instead of in person.
BV Or if you show them in person, say, pull out your phone. Can you build this real quick?
H When it moves too much, the illusion fails.
BV So here’s my challenge to you, I’ve got a Hok tutting challenge. Isn’t that the term? Hand dancing? Start thinking about this while you’re building this. This image is cool because you can’t see my thumb moving. But my thumb is missing from this image. What would elevate this illusion is as if you feel like you can see all of the fingers.
H There’s something nice in the casualness of one hand, though, isn’t there?
BV I feel like we’re one hand position away from cracking it.
H I do love that we’re using this though, because this [illusion] was such a big, pivotal moment in my life when I started seeing things very differently.
BV How do you hide your fingers from this?
H I wonder if it’s here [resting on the palm]. There’s something there, because it looks like you’re holding it, but it’s floating. I think it is one-hand—two-hand is too forced.
BV In the palm is interesting.
H The palm is powerful. It’s so funny, because if you see it as hollow, it’s just nothing. But as soon as your brain clicks—it’s like, “Whoa!!”
BV Is it your brain or is it the camera getting it just right?
H It’s both.